Rockefeller: "Things Are Not Simplistic"

Nelson Rockefeller is a commuter Vice President, shuttling frequently between Washington and New York in his private jet. Not before the end of the school year will he move his wife Happy and their two young sons to the capital city. But he never makes the trip home without taking along several top aides and a hefty leather bag, which is stuffed with up to 45 Ibs. of vice-presidential paper work.

The homework is a token of Rockefeller's approach to his new job. He had hardly settled in his office in the Old Executive Office Building before he was characteristically charging ahead. Among other things, he has assembled a staff of about 30, most of them old associates who took salary cuts to follow him on to the federal payroll in Washington. He has held individual get-acquainted meetings with Cabinet members and other key Administration officials. He has launched the Administration's investigation of the Central Intelligence Agency (see story page 31).

Partner in Full. Several times a day, Rockefeller walks the short distance to the White House to meet with citizens' groups, to work with Administration members on details of President Ford's forthcoming State of the Union message, or to talk about domestic matters with the President himself. Says a top Rockefeller aide: "Ford signed him on as a partner, and there is every sign that he means it in full."

Mindful of his position as No. 2, Rockefeller is careful to do nothing that might be interpreted as acting on his own or as upstaging Ford. Explains one associate: "Rockefeller is highly conscious of being helpful, but not pushing." Adds another aide: "He understands very thoroughly that he is whatever the President says he is."

Last week, after attending his first Ford Cabinet meeting, Rockefeller chatted for an hour with TIME Bureau Chief Hugh Sidey and Correspondent Bonnie Angelo. It was his first press interview as Vice President. Still unused to his new title, he slipped once in relating an anecdote and referred to himself as "the Governor." But there was no confusion in his mind over his role in Government or his relationship with Ford. Pressing two fingers together, he declared: "We're like that." The circumspect Rockefeller would not discuss foreign policy ("That is not my field"). He also would not predict whether he would develop with Ford an overall concept of American life to serve as a framework for domestic policy, as Secretary of State Henry Kissinger has done for U.S. foreign policy. Said Rockefeller: "My hunch is that that is what the President is going to do, [but we haven't] had the tune to sit around and just chat or philosophize." Highlights of the interview:

Q. Americans seem to be drifting, or maybe searching for leadership. How are you going to turn this around? Can you exert leadership from this office?

A. I am not going to. I am not in a leadership position; I am supporting the President. He can exert the leadership and I can support him. The President has the responsibility and the power, and it is a very lonely position. The Vice President has no responsibility and no power. [It can be different] only if the President wants to use the Vice President and only if the Vice President is experienced enough to know where the pitfalls are. I am not going to get out in front of the President. I am in a delicate situation. I am going to give him the best judgment that I have in any field that he asks me about. After he has made a decision, I will support it.

Q. How can you avoid being frustrated as Vice President?

A. I have known every Vice President since Henry Wallace [1941-45]. I come to this at a different point in life. I have had a very active and very rewarding life. This opportunity I did not expect.

Q. Why take the vice presidency?

A. I love this country and I want to serve this country. I spent most of my life trying to serve this country and our relations with other nations. To me it was a great opportunity to be where one might be able to be helpful.

Q. Are you concerned about having to submerge your own ideas?

A. I will always be Nelson Rockefeller. I think the vitality of a democracy is unity with diversity. The President is a man who is open, who wants to listen, to understand different points of view and then try to come to the best decision. I can't stress enough his power of concentration and his total singleness of purpose trying to find what is the right thing to do. I think people are going to look back in history and say that he was bitterly criticized in a lot of things but that this man really has handled himself extremely well and he is grounded in the fundamental beliefs on which this country was built. I worked for five other Presidents and I have attended Cabinet meetings since 1940. I thought that this meeting today was the best-run Cabinet meeting I have attended. He was strong and direct in adding to the discussions and presentations. It was concise and useful to everyone there.

Q. Do you expect to be used more than previous Vice Presidents?

A. I don't expect anything. This, I think, is my greatest strength.

Q. What has the President decided about your role? He has announced that you will head the Domestic Council.

A. It is a statement of intention. The translation of intention into the way in which that can be brought about and realized is in the process of discussion. The function of the Vice President is to preside over the Senate and to be available for any assignment from the President. One visible assignment already is this committee on the domestic activities of the CIA.

Q. Can confidence in the CIA be restored?

A. Surely; otherwise this country wouldn't be in existence any more. That would be my impression. We have had one thing or another throughout 200 years, where there have been low periods and high periods, and individuals, and that is the strength of the system.

Q. The CIA is a rather new addition to our framework, of course. But has the world changed so much that the agency's function should be rethought?

A. As a basic principle, I would agree that nothing should be static. The domestic role of the CIA is very limited, and if there are violations, we will find out what those violations were and the status of them and then make recommendations.

Q. Do you have a conflict in investigating the CIA because you served until recently on the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board?

A. I took an oath of office, so I can't have a conflict. I have one responsibility and that is to the people of this country.

I have no other interests. The public is going to be satisfied on this one if the facts are obtained and if they are then made available and corrective action is taken.

Q. How can the commission avoid having its report called a whitewash?

A. I am not worried about what someone can accuse me of as long as I am satisfied inside that I am doing what I should. This commission is going to do the very best possible job and find out all of it. When you get the final report, you can make your judgment on what the commission was worth.

Q. Do you think that the CIA's problem is excessive secrecy?

A. This is a very delicate matter. One of the things that you reporters cherish is your secrecy. I passed a law in the state of New York to preserve the secrecy of the press so that you could not be taken to court to find out your sources. Nobody has less secrecy left in his life than me, and I never complained about it. I gave the FBI and the congressional committees everything, and it was systematically leaked for two months. So when we talk about privacy and secrecy, it is very hard to separate these two. These things are not simplistic.

Q. Is what you experienced going to keep good men from wanting to come into Government?

A. I don't think that everybody is going to have to go through that. I think that the pendulum is swinging. [With Watergate, it] has swung over where everybody wants something disclosed. I think that it will swing back to a central position.

Q. Should men in public life with wealth as great as yours not be subjected to extraordinary scrutiny?

A. No more than any other person. I don't think the public feels about it the way the press or radio or television or the politicians like to talk about it. I was elected four times, so some people did not think that wealth was a liability.

When I was running the first time and Sherman Adams got involved with that vicuna coat,* some very sophisticated people said, "This is going to be very tough for you." I said, "I don't think so. I think the people of New York are smart enough to know that somebody is not going to sidetrack me by giving me a vicuna coat." [As for the gifts to friends and associates], that used to be considered to be a decent thing. A lot of people repeat from the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." But ideas have gotten so distorted about money that people cannot conceive of somebody doing this for Judeo-Christian motives. It is very interesting and tragic in a way.

Q. Senator George McGovern has proposed a total inheritance tax to end concentrations of wealth such as your family's. What is your feeling?

A. Let me make a comment first. Mr. McGovern spent close to $1.80 per person in his state in his campaign. My highest expenditure in New York was 370 per person. I don't think that Mr. McGovern really, when he gets back to Congress, is going to propose a bill to carry that out.

Q. Speaking of Watergate, at any point did you condemn Richard Nixon?

A. Oh, yes, I did, but nobody printed it because it wasn't dramatic enough.

Q. What did you say? How do you feel now?

A. It is a tragedy. But let us profit from this as a nation. It wasn't just Watergate. It is violating the traffic laws, it is cheating on exams. There is too much of this beating the system.

Q. What about people who beat the system through tax loopholes? Are you in favor of tax reform?

A. I am all for tax reform, but tax loopholes--which has a sinister sound of wrongdoing--were written into the law for an objective by the lawmakers, to stimulate certain activities or industries or for some other purpose. I am for tax reform, but let us do it in a way that reflects the best interests of America.

Q. Where do you think the U.S. stands today?

A. At a turning point, and I think that we are going to come into one of the greatest and most exciting periods in the history of the world. Jean-Franc,ois Revel, author of that book Without Marx or Jesus,* wrote on this subject and said: "I don't think the answers are going to come from the Communist world or from the old, European countries. The one place where there is flexibility and creativity enough is America." I remain an optimist. I see opportunities for improving the quality of people's lives not only here but in other parts of the world.

Q. What about the auto worker in Detroit? Has he, for example, any reason for optimism?

A. I don't know why not. He is living in America. He is a lucky guy. He has a tough thing at the moment, but he is still getting about 90% of his salary, and will for many months. This isn't like the Depression in the '30s. The man really has to think about whether our Government understands these economic and social problems and is able to create a framework within the free-enterprise system to solve them. There are a lot of things that are in short supply, so maybe he will find himself making something else for a while. But this [transformation] will take a new relationship between Government and private enterprise. I think the President is aware of this and is studying and is listening. He has to make some fundamental decisions, which he is in the process of finishing now, and then get on with the ramifications of them.

Q. So you think that there are specific solutions to the world's problems?

A. Yes, I do. I think that problems and opportunities go together. It is a question of how fast we can understand them. This is what the President is wrestling with now. I have confidence that we are going to find the right answers.

* Adams resigned as President Dwight Eisenhower's chief aide in 1958 after admitting that he had accepted the coat and other gifts from Textile Manufacturer Bernard Goldfine.

*Published by Doubleday, 1971.

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