Israeli vs. Palestinian: Face to Face

Israelis and Palestinians have much to say to each other, but seldom are their conflicting arguments delivered face to face. Israel continued to boycott the Middle East debate at the United Nations Security Council last week, because the Palestine Liberation Organization was taking part. At week's end Council members were still debating the precise wording of an Arab-sponsored resolution affirming the Palestinians' "inalienable national right" to a homeland. Although the draft resolution also advocated security guarantees for all states in the area--a tacit acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist--the U.S. was expected to veto the resolution when it comes to a vote early this week.

Behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict lie deep, passionate disagreements and hostilities. To recreate, in a sense, the debate that could have taken place between the adversaries in the U.N., TIME's Diplomatic Editor Jerrold L. Schecter recently moderated a lively debate between two articulate (but unofficial) advocates of the Israeli and Palestinian causes. Amos Perlmutter, 44, is a Tel Aviv-born Israeli, who is professor of government at American University in Washington and the author of books on Egypt and on the role of the military in Israel's politics. Hatem Hussaini, 33, a Palestinian from Jerusalem, has a doctorate in political science from the University of Massachusetts and is a representative on the staff of the Arab Information Center in Washington. Excerpts from their dialogue:

SCHECTER: As a basic question, should Israel talk with the P.L.O. and the P.L.O. with Israel, and under what circumstances?

PERLMUTTER: Clearly, Israel should talk with any group of people or organization in the Middle East that recognizes a Jewish national state.

HUSSAINI: It is very difficult for the P.L.O. and the Palestinian people to talk to the Israeli government now. The Israeli government is in control of all of Palestine and has imposed military rule over 1 1/2 million Palestinians. It has not mentioned anything about how it is going to deal with the Palestinian people on the basis of their national rights.

SCHECTER: How do you see these circumstances changing?

HUSSAINI: [Only] if there is a new Israeli government or if there is a new policy that would recognize the national rights of the Palestinian people and their right to return to their country and live as equals with others.

PERLMUTTER: First, I would say the problem of the national rights of Palestinians is an inter-Arab problem, not an Israeli problem. In other words, [the question of] those rights is part of the negotiating process. You cannot come to the end of the process at the beginning.

Point two: What is the definition for Palestine? If I look at the Palestinian National Covenant of 1968, only Palestinian Arabs possess the right of self-determination in the country. As long as the covenant practically says that the only way to liberate Palestine is by war, and the only definition of Palestine is a total Arab Palestine, how can Israel negotiate itself out of existence?

SCHECTER: Do you see Israel negotiating itself out of existence?

HUSSAINI: This myth and this phrase are so unreal. There are 3 million Israelis. They have the right to remain there and live in peace and prosperity. I am surprised that Dr. Perlmutter says self-determination for the Palestinians is not an Israeli problem. Of course it is.

There are 3 million Palestinians and 3 million Israelis; these two peoples should coexist within a secular democratic society [in Palestine]. The question is how and in what form.

SCHECTER: What about a Palestinian state on the West Bank and in Gaza federated with Jordan?

HUSSAINI: I will have to wait and see if the Israeli government would end its military occupation of these territories and allow the Palestinians the freedom to express their opinion and determine their destiny. We ask how long are the West Bank and Gaza going to remain under Israeli occupation. This is why Palestinians speak of liberation. When you have people under military rule, they have every right to resist. Our struggle for liberation is not against the Jews; it is to live as a free people.

PERLMUTTER: In 1947 there was a U.N. resolution that divided the country into two--one Arab state, one Jewish state. It was the Arab countries that attacked Israel, and it is the Arab countries that are responsible for the expulsion of the Palestinians. Between 1951 and 1967, most of the Palestinians that Mr. Hussaini is talking about were under Jordanian rule. I am in favor of a Palestine-Jordan solution. [But] as an Israeli who recognizes that there is a nationalist movement in Palestine, I would be willing to say the P.L.O. probably is the only group that represents real Palestinian nationalism. [Nonetheless] that does not mean that a Palestinian state could be established tomorrow unless you negotiate it.

HUSSAINI: It is a historical inaccuracy to blame the suffering of the Palestinians on the Arab states. It is a fact that the Palestinian people belong to the lands of Palestine, the territory that was put under British rule in the early 1920s. There was fighting in Palestine, and many Palestinians left their homes as Jewish military forces were moving into these towns and villages.

The U.N. General Assembly recommended partition of Palestine into two states: Jewish and Arab. So we now ask today: Where is the Arab state? The Palestinians do not belong to Jordan or Syria or Egypt. They belong to Haifa, Jaffa and Lod.

Why should an American and a Soviet Jew have a right to a go to Israel and automatically become citizens, while the Palestinians who were born there have no right? This is the central question, a question of the denial of inalienable rights.

PERLMUTTER: You deny the concept of a Jewish national state. We live in an age of national movements. The Jews came to Zion, the [historic] land of the Jews. A Jew from Russia has a right to come to Haifa because it is the Jewish national homeland, as much as Egypt is for an Egyptian. As for the Palestinians, during the British mandate there were no Palestinians. People came from Syria, Egypt or what is now Lebanon who lived in the area called Palestine. You know, if we are going to history, we will never resolve it. Let's talk about the situation now. The P.L.O. covenant says the armed struggle "is the only way to liberate Palestine and is therefore strategy, not tactics."

SCHECTER: How do you answer Dr. Perlmutter's question about reconizing the existence of Israel?

HUSSAINI: Palestine was never without any people. The problem is--I think he knows it very well--that this Jewish national home has been established on our lands, at our expense. Therefore, I cannot return, and thousands are living in refugee camps.

When you ask me to recognize Israel, does this mean I have to remain in exile forever? How can you ask me to recognize this Jewish homeland when I cannot return? I am from Jerusalem. My father is living there, and yet I cannot go and see him. You know well I cannot.

PERLMUTTER: There is a state of war between the Arab countries and Israel.

HUSSAINI: It is a fact that I cannot return. The Israeli government would allow me to visit for two months, and then I have to leave. That is, of course, the greatest insult. So when you talk about armed struggle and so on, the Israelis have used armed struggle--violence--to occupy these territories. If you are against armed struggle, you should condemn the Israeli army.

PERLMUTTER: if you are arguing that you would like to have a national liberation force, fine--but not at the expense of a Jewish national home. Israel does not sit with the P.L.O. because you argue that the armed struggle must go on. Why should Israel negotiate with those who want to eliminate it? If you want an armed struggle in Jordan, fine; 60% of the Jordanians are Palestinians.

HUSSAINI: I feel that if we want to move toward peace, the Palestinian people should have a right to return to their homes and live as equals, not as second-class citizens.

SCHECTER: Do you accept the existence of the state of Israel?

HUSSAINI: The question is what kind of Israel. Is it the state for all Jews in the world to go and live there? What boundaries? What kind of state? If it is a Jewish state, what will happen to me as a non-Jew? We are saying Palestine should be for the Israelis and the Palestinians and these two peoples should live with equal rights. I should have a right to live in Jerusalem, run for President if I want to.

SCHECTER: What would happen in an election among the Palestinians on the West Bank and in Gaza and Jordan today?

PERLMUTTER: Israel is preparing for elections in March, [which] I think is a first step toward settlement. You know, the people on the West Bank can participate in Jordanian elections. Have you heard of any other occupied people who vote in elections for a state that is an avowed enemy of Israel like Jordan?

SCHECTER: But aren't you talking about something different?

HUSSAINI: Yes, a free plebiscite to see what the Palestinians want. Obviously, the Israeli government would not allow that. Dr. Perlmutter is talking about municipal elections. Of course the Palestinians have a right to run their towns. But if you would have a free plebiscite on the West Bank and in Gaza, the Palestinians would support the P.L.O. They would say they want to be free to run their own affairs, and would want to have a right to return to their homes in Israel proper.

SCHECTER: Then what happens to the existence of Israel?

HUSSAINI: When we talk about Palestinians returning and coexisting with Israel, I don't see why the term destroy should come into this picture. What we are talking about is changing the laws and Institutions that allow one people to dominate another, to discriminate against another. The Law of Return discriminates because it allows a Jew from the Soviet Union to return but does not allow a Palestinian to return.

SCHECTER: What do you say to that?

PERIMUTTER: There is a fundamental problem. The P.L.O. is a radical, nationalistic, neo-Islamic movement. It is authoritarian, and it is dedicated to the annihilation of Israel. The P.L.O. is a movement dedicated to every principle that is antagonistic to liberal democratic principles, which Israel stands for. How could Israel accept within it such a movement?

HUSSAINI: On the one hand, Dr. Perlmutter does not want Palestinians to say anything about what kind of state Israel [ought to be]. Yet on the other hand, he makes all kinds of statements about the Palestinian movement. This is a double standard. If you call on the Palestinians to lay down their guns, then Israel should also renounce force. We did not bring force into this conflict, historically. The Palestinians were a civilian population, unarmed, untrained.

SCHECTER: Isn't the General Assembly resolution equating Zionism and racism going to lead to worldwide antiSemitism?

HUSSAINI: No, I don't think so. The Palestinians are opposed to discrimination against any people because of their color or religion. We, the Palestinians, are Semites anyhow.

What this resolution really tries to say is that Zionism, in the process of creating the Jewish state, has discriminated against another people, has denied them their rights. This is a form of racial discrimination. We say the Law of Return and other laws that deny the Palestinians their rights should be removed. This is what the resolution is trying to say. If you read it, you will see it also condemns discrimination against any people on the basis of race, religion or color.

PERLMUTTER: I think the resolution is racist and antiSemitic. For me, Judaism is symbiotic. It is both a people and a religion. If you look at the history of the Jews, you see there could be no Jewish religion without the ethnic group, the Jewish people, and there could not be a Jewish people without the Jewish religion. I argue that an anti-Zionist resolution is anti-Semitic in the following sense: because Israel is central to Jewish experience, and if you delegitimatize Israel, you delegitimatize Jews.

HUSSAINI: To the Palestinians, Judaism is a religion of great spiritual values. Christian and Islamic beliefs have taken so much from the spiritual values of Judaism. [But] for Judaism to be identified with a state that has an army that kills and massacres--that is a contradiction.

Jews have every right to come to Palestine and live in peace but not to come with bombs and expel Palestinians and then tell them you belong here and don't belong there. This resolution is trying to say that the heart of the conflict in Palestine is that Zionism came by force, denied the inhabitants their rights and created this state that has nothing to do with religious values.

SCHECTER: Could you project a solution into the future?

HUSSAINI: I think the P.L.O. has laid down this principle in its 1973 National Council meeting, that in any territory that Israel evacuates--meaning the West Bank and Gaza--the P.L.O. will establish national authority. But that is based on a big "if," because what we see in fact is an Israeli policy of building new Jewish settlements in the occupied territories.

I want Israel to leave the West Bank and Gaza so that my people would become free and could determine their own destiny, and, of course, the P.L.O. would be willing to participate in peace efforts toward that end.

PERLMUTTER: I am disturbed by reading what [P.L.O. "Foreign Minister"] Farouk Kaddoumi said: "I am sure that we can find a formula for peaceful coexistence, but this Zionist ghetto of Israel must be destroyed." Will you say that the Zionist state of Israel should exist, and you should negotiate with it like Egypt negotiated with it? I would agree with that, if it is constructive.

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