Reality and a Right to Dream

Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat last week broke a long silence by giving TIME's Wilton Wynn and Abu Said Abu Rish his first exclusive interview since September 1975. The scene was his secret, map-lined "operations room" on the outskirts of Beirut, his mood one of amiability and drive, even though he was noticeably fatigued from a long day of hospital and cemetery visits. Surprisingly, Arafat insisted that the war in Lebanon had left his Palestine Liberation Organization stronger than before. He indicated for the first time that the P.L.O. was prepared to accept statehood alongside Israel, at least temporarily, in lieu of a larger state including all of what was Palestine, but protested that Palestinians were being shut out of Middle East peace negotiations and denied contacts with the American people. The interview:

Q. What does the Israeli buildup on Lebanon's southern frontier mean?

A. I believe that what has happened in Lebanon was partly initiated by the Israelis. This is clear from Israeli pronouncements and the supplies and support they have given to the isolationists [a derisive Moslem term for Lebanese Christian rightists]. The military concentration is an extension of what has happened and is still happening in south Lebanon, where at least seven villages are occupied by isolation forces supported by Israel. This is a threat to our forces, who must be situated in the south under the Cairo agreement. It is also a threat to the Syrian peace-keeping forces, which are being told not to cross a "red line" that seems to be movable.

Q. Was the P.L.O. weakened by the Lebanese war?

A. The war did keep us preoccupied for a long time. But instead of being weakened, we gained valuable military experience. Politically, you can see that we are stronger by noting the recent United Nations vote calling for the establishment of a Palestinian state. Ninety nations voted for it. Remember, those states don't cast their votes out of mere sympathy.

We also showed our strength at recent Arab summits [Riyadh and Cairo], whose resolutions not only reaffirmed that the P.L.O. was the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, but developed that idea by emphasizing the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent state in their homeland. These are major victories.

Q. In the past you called for a united Palestine where Arabs and Jews would live together. Has this view changed?

A. We are prepared to establish an independent regime in any territory that we liberate or from which Israel withdraws. We have some reservations about the recent U.N. resolution, but we still consider it a victory for our cause. Remember, the resolution was introduced by a 20-state committee and not by the P.L.O. This is important.

Q. Does this mean you will accept a West Bank-Gaza state if it is offered?

A. I follow the resolutions [passed in 1974] of our Palestine National Council, which state that we will establish a national authority on any part of Palestine liberated from Israel or which Israel will evacuate. This is clear.

Q. President Sadat of Egypt has launched a peace offensive aimed at a negotiated settlement with Israel. To what extent will you cooperate?

A. We will cooperate with all our Arab brothers and all our allies. But the degree of support given us by our allies is not identical. We accept from each one the degree of support he gives our cause. Naturally, we cannot oblige others to support us exactly according to our wishes and thoughts.

Q. Sadat predicts a 1977 Geneva Conference to reach an Arab-Israel settlement. Will the P.L.O. attend?

A. Where is the invitation? [Israeli Premier Yitzhak] Rabin is still saying he is not ready to think of Geneva if the Palestinians participate. But this is not a question of an Arafat state but of a Palestinian state. We are an important element in this area. Nobody can ignore this if he is looking for a solution.

Q. Christians and Moslems who had lived together killed each other in the Lebanese war. Do you still believe Arabs and Jews can live peacefully together in Palestine?

A. We Palestinians don't have such complexes. Our leadership includes both Christians and Moslems. During the civil war, the isolationists attacked Christian Palestinian refugee camps, just as they attacked Moslem Palestinian camps. In Israel, many Palestinian Christians are in prison. But as I have mentioned often before, a unified Palestine is my dream--and I have the right to dream.

Q. What about improving relations between the P.L.O. and the U.S.?

A. We had hoped to establish a P.L.O. office in Washington, but our representative, Sabri Jiryis, was kicked out of your country on a technicality.* This pained us. We tried but your reply was to kick out our representative.

Q. The U.S. recently supported a U.N. resolution condemning Israeli behavior in occupied territories. Doesn't this indicate a change in American policy?

A. I am desperate, I am sorry to say, regarding U.S. policy. Until now the U.S. was only on the side of Israeli aggression. Now things depend on Carter. It's up to him to decide whether he will continue this policy against our displaced people. I hope Carter will have some understanding of our people and our cause. But I don't know whether the Palestinian people should bet on this.

Q. Are you prepared to give up your arms in Lebanon?

A. We are prepared to discuss this with the four-party high committee set up by the Riyadh conference: Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Syria.

* Jiryis' visa was not renewed because his application falsely indicated that he had been born in the Sudan, whose passport he carries. The State Department added, however, that "from a foreign policy standpoint, we do not believe it a propitious moment for the P.L.O. to establish an office in Washington."

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