The White Bastion: Hanging Tough

While world attention focused on the machinations of a mad dictator in Uganda last week, the continent's crucial contest remained the struggle between black and white in southern Africa. As guerrilla war sputtered across Rhodesia and unrest smoldered on in the black ghettos of South Africa, TIME Senior Editor John Elson spoke with the principal proprietors and policymakers of the continent's white power bastion--South African Prime Minister John Vorster and Rhodesian Prime Minister Ian Smith. Vorster received Elson with Reporter Peter Hawthorne in his 18th-floor office in the Hendrik Verwoerd Building in Cape Town; Smith spoke with Elson and TIME Correspondent Lee Griggs the following day in his sparsely furnished office in downtown Salisbury. Vorster appeared to be stolid but relaxed; Smith's answers were plain-spoken and understated. But in essence, both men made clear their hard-line conviction that whatever political transition is to evolve in southern Africa, it must take place largely on their own terms. Excerpts from the interviews:

Vorster: 'Change to Where and to What?'

Q. How would you describe your country's position on the African continent today?

A. We made the mistake in the past of looking upon ourselves as Europeans, whereas in fact we were only of European extraction and were as much of Africa as anybody else. I have tried to make it known that we have every right to consider ourselves as whites with a permanent stake in Africa.

Q. Have you suffered setbacks in your relations with black Africa?

A. Unofficially, many doors are still open. Officially, certain doors are open. One is sorry there have been setbacks, but I am not perturbed as long as the trend is upward. The fact is that South Africa has established itself and been accepted as an African country.

Q. Are you committed to change within South Africa?

A. I believe in orderly change. Nothing is static in this world. All the changes that have been brought about in South Africa were brought about by this government, by my predecessors and myself. But "change" is just a parrot cry --change to where and to what? Nobody can tell you, as evidenced by the fact that [South Africa's parliamentary opposition] can't find an alternative to the policy of the government.

Q. Are you still convinced that your policy of creating "independent" black homelands within South Africa is the way to solve the country's racial problems?

A. I absolutely believe that this is the only solution. Any other solution will lead to chaos.

Q. Why isn't it possible for blacks to have the vote within South Africa itself?

A. It is my policy that the black people will have the vote, which they never had under previous governments. As for urban blacks, I'm prepared to give them all the opportunities for local government, for recreation and social activities. But political rights in the white areas, no. These will be exercised in their own homelands. And it should be pointed out that many of the homeland leaders are urban blacks.

Q. Has there been any change in your attitude toward the U.S.?

A. I have often said that America is the leader of the free world, that South Africa is part and parcel of that free world, and that America in that sense is also South Africa's leader. Unfortunately, if I am disowned by my leader, I have no option but to go it alone. It's not by choice, but I'm not going to shirk it. I don't mind being kicked in the pants --I'm quite used to that--but I'm damned if I'm going to be kicked in the teeth all the time.

Q. What do you think about the present attitude of the world community toward South Africa?

A. I would ask the world not to judge South Africa by a double standard, but by the facts. Can anybody blame me for not taking notice of decisions at the U.N. where South Africa is condemned? Britain, the U.S. and France have just meekly and mildly accepted a false accusation from [neighboring] Lesotho that South Africa closed three border posts. The fact is that the West is not prepared to speak up when the Afro-Asians make their accusations. They needn't prove a damn thing, but everybody accepts it.

Q. What kind of new initiative [by the Western powers with the help of South Africa] do you think is possible for Rhodesia?

A. People talk far too much, and it will serve no purpose at this stage to reply to that question except to say that South Africa is willing once again to be of service to try to find a solution to this problem. Let me add once again that South Africa is not willing to prescribe in this matter to Rhodesia.

Q. What do you expect from the Carter Administration on Rhodesia?

A. Well, I don't expect anything more from Washington now than I expected from the Ford Administration; namely that they take an interest in the course of peace in southern Africa and that they must do so in an attempt to stem Marxist-Communist takeovers in southern Africa.

Smith: The Best Years Of Our Lives'

Q. Do you expect to receive financial and military aid from South Africa in fighting the guerrilla war?

A. When South Africa withdrew its police and helicopter pilots from our country over the past two years, it indicated that it believed this was in the best interests of both our countries. We would hope South Africa would continue to treat us simply as a normal friend would treat us, and would not turn against us as the rest of our friends in the world have done. We would hope, for example, they would never lend themselves to the despicable game of trying to apply sanctions against us and persecute us because we try to live a normal life and mind our own business.

Q. What went wrong with the Kissinger initiative last fall?

A. We found Dr. Kissinger to be pretty straight and to the point, but it is a fact that subsequently the whole exercise ran aground. There is speculation as to whether, for example, he had obtained the concurrence of the [five African] front-line Presidents in the terms he put to me. It seems as though one of two things happened: he led me to believe other people were a party to this agreement when they were not, or he was given certain undertakings from other people that they subsequently reneged on.

Q. Is it possible to move toward black rule without the participation of the Patriotic Front, the guerrilla organization now backed by most African states?

A. Yes, I honestly think so, because we know that the Patriotic Front represents such a small minority of black opinion in Rhodesia. If we can arrive at a settlement that is in keeping with the wishes of the black majority, how can any fair-minded person or any country that believes in the democratic system deny us the right to proceed in this manner?

Q. Do you regard Communist intervention in Rhodesia as a serious threat?

A. We are very concerned. I don't think there is any doubt that the Communist objective is to try to gain control of the whole of southern Africa. We must try to resist this.

Q. What sort of race relations would Rhodesia have under a multiracial government?

A. I believe that if the rest of the world would only leave us alone, give us a fair chance, then we would solve our problems quickly, and I believe we would establish a country and a society where you would find blacks and whites working together to their mutual benefit. I think we have a chance of creating something unique on the African continent.

Q. Are you prepared to abolish discrimination against blacks?

A. There is still some racial discrimination that we believe it is necessary to remove, but I make this point to you: discrimination has been part of the Rhodesian scene as long as Rhodesia has been here, [even] under the British. We are keen to get together with our black leaders so that we can ensure that we solve these problems in the best possible way.

Q. What is the state of the guerrilla war today?

A. Terrorism has spread, but we are managing to hold our position against the terrorists. The security forces may never win outright, but it also seems as though the terrorists can never win outright. If we succeed in achieving an internal political settlement, the war will be won and terrorism will be beaten finally and irrevocably in Rhodesia.

Q. How do you feel now about the unilateral declaration of independence that you declared in 1965?

A. There are no regrets. We have had twelve of the best years of our lives --great years, stimulating years, in which we have created a small nation with great national pride. We have had economic development such as we never had before. Whatever happens in the future, Rhodesia will benefit from the years we have been through.

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