Talk of Change

An interview with Botha

By the standards of South Africa's all-white National Party, Prime Minister Pieter Willem Botha, 66, is a moderate. In his 18th-floor office in Cape Town, he talked with TIME Johannesburg Bureau Chief Marsh Clark about the political battle raging within Afrikanerdom. When Clark joked that the Prime Minister, who describes himself as a conservative, though not an "embalmed" one, bore no visible scars from his recent skirmishes, Botha replied: "I suppose I am like a crayfish--always in hot water." Excerpts from the interview:

On the right-wing defection from the party, led by Dr. Andries Treurnicht. I would not say it is really a split. It involves a number of people who are perhaps dissatisfied and have broken away. They will find that the vast majority of the party's members and supporters will not follow them. Dr. Treurnicht is what I would call a word artist. He uses words to cloud the issue. On basic matters, he has no policy. Even before I made the statement [on power sharing with some non-whites], Treurnicht was already at loggerheads with the party. The statement is an excuse they used. I think they have been organizing for quite a while to take a stand of their own.

On power sharing. I stand for the idea of a confederation of independent states, cooperating on matters like water conservation, tourism, economic development. We have come to an agreement on regional development with Transkei, Venda, Bophuthatswana and Ciskei [the already established black "homelands"]. Now then, you have the coloreds and the South African Asians. The President's Council [an appointive body established to consider constitutional change] is at present considering ways and means of enabling [these communities] to share in joint decisions, making that possible without disturbing or destroying the rights of others.

On whether coloreds and Asians will be allowed to vote. They will have to have a say in one form or another. We do not believe that a new dispensation can come about overnight. It can only come into being over a period of time, as a result of an evolutionary process.

On political change in South Africa.

You cannot have development without change, though I am not for change for change's sake. During this parliamentary session, we contemplate introducing measures to improve the local government system for black people outside the national states. On the labor front, we have made great advances.

On whether colored South Africans will some day be subject to the draft. They are coming forward more and more as volunteers. As to their say in their local affairs and in their future, they must have that say. You cannot dictate to people [by drafting them] without giving them a voice. When you institute national service, they must be able to make themselves heard.

On current U.S. policy toward South Africa. Under the [Carter Administration], things went wrong because it tried to pressure us. We were shouted at. President Reagan adopted a different attitude. He said he was prepared to talk to South Africa in a decent way, with mutual respect. We're a small but very proud nation, and we believe that this is the correct approach.

On the prospects for a settlement on Namibia. We do not stand in the way of independence for [Namibia]. As a matter of fact, we are in a hurry because that territory has been a tremendous financial burden to us. The question is who is going to fill the vacuum when we leave. We are not going to allow Communist forces, at the point of a gun, to subject the people of Namibia. But we won't stand in the way of independence, and we hope that the Western countries will share with us the burden of developing it.

On whether "separate development" must remain the keystone of the South African system. Separate development is applied in Europe between peoples while they unite in the European Community. It is carried out in the Americas. It is the order of the day in the rest of Africa. If we carry it out here, separate development means nothing other than that peoples have traditions, history and ideals to which they must remain true. And they must not use those traditions, histories and ideals to belittle or destroy the rights of others.

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