From Submission To Revolution

By CARL BERNSTEIN and FREDERICK UNGEHEUER Jens Reich .

Q. Did you ever consider going to West Germany before the Wall went up?

A. We regretted many times afterward that we did not do it. I would like to have done something in Big Science abroad. I even applied via relatives to study in the U.S. But it never materialized. There was also pressure from my parents. My father always said Mother would not survive it.

Q. What were your early political views?

A. By the 1950s I had already read Arthur Koestler's Darkness at Noon. Also historical accounts about Hitler; why he was never overthrown. I must say I was always against the system. We called it "contra" then. My parents were as well. My father is a bit red. But my mother made sure we were instructed as Catholics. There was always internal resistance. We thought the system could not last long, that we had to accept it as a result of the war, of Hitler's despotism and the cruelty of that regime. Yet we were always afraid of being denounced. My mother was always anxious, telling us, "Don't say anything political," when we went to school.

Q. Why did you become a scientist?

A. It was camouflage. I would have preferred to pursue liberal arts, but they were pervaded by the ideology. You were forced to profess Marxism-Leninism. That was impossible. My father, who is a doctor, said, "Go into science or medicine. This is where you can survive as a person."

Q. How did you become involved with New Forum?

A. For years we had dissidents, just like in Poland and Russia. Then, in the early '80s we began to live. There were individualistic and bohemian groups of all stripes: hippies, Maoists, anarchists, human rights groups, lesbians, gays. It was a very colorful mix. And somewhat deterring. My wife Eva and I felt like white crows in that crowd. Though they were all very friendly to us, they even attacked the church, which gave them shelter. There were a lot of fights, informers, subversion. They could not possibly become a real political force. What they did was very brave, but it couldn't work. We had to reach out to a more respectable, middle-aged generation, come out of this social ghetto, out of the church, out of Berlin and out of highbrow theories. We had to - appeal to engineers, doctors, nurses, teachers and bricklayers.

Finally, 30 of us came together on Sept. 9 near Berlin. I knew only a third of them. We worked out our manifesto. Our meeting coincided with the exodus through Hungary and the mounting demonstrations in Leipzig. It became a grass- roots movement. People were copying the manifesto everywhere. The regime could not have been overthrown by a party, only by this kind of popular uprising.

Q. Goethe said life was a metaphor. What is the metaphor for your life during the past 40 years?

A. Living in a snail's shell, being able to hide and defend what you considered worth living for: culture, tradition, family, Germany in a way. We were defending German soil. Had we left, there would have been a desert. A snail, sitting in its cozy shell, making itself as comfortable as possible, occasionally putting out its antennae to find out what life is like. But in our shells we always had time for others. People in our circle of friends became a little like Slavs, who in their long winters seem to have plenty of time to play chess, chat or discuss their religion. I hope these habits do not wane.

Q. Are you afraid they will with unification?

A. I am by no means afraid of unification, but I am afraid that we will lose something precious, that we'll be naked. We must put up some defensive barriers.

Q. Another Wall?

A. Not a wall. We should come out of our snail shells. Also, a lot of people are demoralized. They have overthrown the old system, but they see only ruins all around. Instead of rolling up their sleeves, they are waiting for help. They feel inferior. East Germans have been in an ambivalent situation for a long time. On the one hand, they were proud of having the best socialism compared with all those "untidy" Russians and Poles. They felt like students at the top of their class. They felt contempt for the rest of Eastern Europe. This was coupled with feelings of humility toward West Germany, where everything was so much better.

It was the same under the Nazis. Germans were the emperors of Europe then, but still suffering from a complex of being powerless victims, having to follow orders. Many of us always wavered between arrogance and submission. After the war, for instance, it was dreadful to see how eager some people were to endear themselves to the Americans. It will take a form of national psychotherapy to bring this into equilibrium.

! Q. Isn't there also an old German penchant to see yourselves as victims, excusing what you did because you were only following orders?

A. We are not only victims. Communist oppression was much more subtle than it was under the Nazis. We made our peace with this dreadful system. I was always ashamed that we were so quiescent.

Q. Are you afraid of being dominated by West Germans?

A. There is a fear. But it can't be relieved by complaining. We can help shape what our life should be. West Germans will have to accept what we want.

Q. But won't a united Germany be dominated by Western politics and money?

A. I am skeptical about a lopsided monetary union. It will expose our weakness and lead to grave social consequences. It would be like a ship with its cargo shifted to one side, out of balance and not able to float properly. West Germany seems to be offering a lot, but it says we must take their system along with it. I am not willing to put myself at the mercy of West Germany so readily. As to our political future, I see a collection, a federation of autonomous Lander ((states)), each of which has its own historical identity -- related to one another like members of a family, and eventually neutral and unarmed. A centralized German state has always produced tendencies to suppress cultural diversity.

Q. Now it appears that New Forum is being swept aside. What about the participation of the West German political parties in East Germany?

A. Well, they are conducting their electoral campaign in our country. Last December they still assured us that we would be able to develop our own democracy. But you can't do anything against a dam breaking. The water spills over you. In our first elections, we of the New Forum have been put at a disadvantage. It's obvious. Those with ties to West German parties have the logistics, whatever is needed to run a campaign. We have only private sympathizers. Nor can I bring myself to look into the television camera and say the same short sentence 20 times over to make a spot out of it. You feel like a chimpanzee.

Q. But you are standing as a candidate?

A. I'm afraid so.