Hoping Saddam Hussein Would Just Go Away

By DAVID AIKMAN/NEW YORK TURGUT OZAL

Q. Do you think America is doing enough to encourage democracy in Iraq?

A. It's a very difficult thing. It's what I call the edge of the sword. Your country will be criticized if you try to impose something, and Americans will oppose this. But if you do not do anything, people will criticize that.

I agree with President Bush. I would like to see another leader -- another regime -- in Iraq.

Q. You have said Saddam Hussein is a "wicked man." But won't a policy of simply standing aside from the conflict allow him to continue ruling?

A. I don't see how he can stay. I mean, he could be successful today or tomorrow, but not for long.

Q. Should he be brought to trial?

A. If there is going to be a decision, that should be taken by the U.N. But the mandate was given to end his aggression against Kuwait, not to remove him from power. If one of your divisions took a bridge on the Euphrates River, and didn't even go too far, maybe half the distance to Baghdad, maybe President Saddam Hussein would flee. But I think that would be a mistake, because in that case he might become a hero to the Arabs. Let the Iraqi people make the decision. Whether they are successful or not is another problem.

Q. The Iranians have said they are not seeking to turn southern Iraq, which is predominantly Shi'ite, into a separatist state. Do you believe that?

A. They would like to see the Shi'ite part of Iraq as their own, but I don't think they will be able to accomplish it.

Q. Given the chaos inside Iraq right now, what do you hope to see emerge from this civil war?

A. It's up to the Iraqis to decide. I would like to see a more democratic government, more representative of different groups in Iraq. The country is not a melting pot like the U.S. or Turkey, where many people have come and formed one nation. The human rights of different groups should first be established very well. If a society is not democratic, then its people cannot have freedom.

Q. Is an increasingly politicized Islam a threat to secular rule in Turkey?

A. If a state is religious, with a name like Islamic Republic and so forth, then there will be people there who want to appear religious, but they are just pretending to be so. But if your state is a secular one, then nobody can claim to be religious unless he really is so. Comparing Turkey today with many Arab countries, I think Turks are more religious. But this does not mean they are fundamentalist. Dangers exist, but the main point is that the problems are economic.

Q. But what makes you think Turkey can withstand the Islamic revolutionary anger that is affecting so many countries, even quite advanced ones like Malaysia?

A. I think Malaysia, economically, is richer than us. But from the point of view of the experience of having a state, Turkey is far richer. I say these other states should learn from us, not we from them.

Also there is a substantial difference between the living conditions of Turkey today and in 1979. Turkey is not today in a state of crisis. I mean, most Turks carry credit cards, like Americans or Europeans. Some years ago, it was a sin to carry a credit card or foreign exchange in your pocket. You would be jailed for it. Now, I say, we have passed a certain point, and we will not go back.

Q. Do you consider Turkey a European country?

A. Turkey is on a cultural fault line, where two cultures mix. But in Ottoman times, Turkey was called "the sick man of Europe," so that means we were considered then a European country. Today Turkey is basically of Western orientation. We have democracy, human rights and a free market. While 98% of the population is Muslim, we are also a secular state. It's a good example for the rest of the Islamic world. Turkey plays the role of a bridge between Western and Islamic societies, and this will become more important in the coming decades.

Q. Does Turkey want to play a role in resolving the larger Middle East crisis?

A. I think Turkey should come out of isolation and play a role. Our experience | with economic reform in the past 10 to 11 years gives us this possibility, and also our experience in the past 45 years of democracy.

Q. But part of emerging from isolation is establishing yourselves as full members of the community of civilized nations. And when your application for membership to the European Community is discussed in Brussels and Strasbourg, so are two human rights issues: the use of torture and the lack of free expression for religions other than Islam.

A. Yes, I know. Turkey has a very old decree that prohibits some books from being brought into the country. I tell you, that decree was not signed by me. When I was Prime Minister, I was trying to stop it. It requires education. We are intending to remove those legal articles that relate to the expression of ideas, freedom of thinking, which is so important in the U.S. If you give a people a chance to search for new horizons, they will probably do much better.

Q. What is it about the U.S. that you feel other countries, especially in the Middle East, may not grasp?

A. They probably do not understand democracy. The system of checks and balances, they don't understand this. For example, when you discussed whether you should go to war in the gulf or solve the issue with an embargo. I know everything can be discussed in the U.S. But once you reach a conclusion, probably a large number of people support it.

Q. You have cumulatively spent, on and off since you were 19, more than five years in the U.S. What did you learn about America and Americans?

A. You are a free society, but you are also somewhat limited. Take the pressures you were under when you prohibited alcohol in the 1920s. This was unbelievable. But there is one interesting fact: you contribute constantly to self-renewal. This probably comes from the free expression of ideas, free thinking. There is also free enterprise, the ability of people to take risks. A man can even jump from Niagara Falls. I mean, there is no difference between a man jumping, or making money, or the astronauts going to the moon.

Q. You are said to have an unusually close relationship with President Bush. What is that like?

A. I knew President Bush a long time ago, when he was Vice President. Let me tell you, when President Bush was a candidate against Dukakis, I was here, and I talked to him. I was hoping he would win the election, because, at the beginning, some writers said Bush was not as decisive as Reagan. But I didn't see that.

I think I have given him some advice. I think he probably benefited, because we are very close to the gulf area, and I also know the mentality of the American people.

Q. What other world leaders have you respected as people of integrity and intelligence?

A. Mrs. Thatcher. I'll tell you very frankly, I was very sorry she resigned. Before that, we were in Paris. She told me that after 11 years of prime ministership, you have a lot of enemies because the people who don't make Minister become your enemies, and the people who were Ministers and are removed become your enemies. I think she was right. I have the same problem in Turkey.