The Great Survivor

By JOHN STACKS and DEAN FISCHER/AMMAN King Hussein

Q. Your neighbors in the gulf are angry at you, the U.S. Congress is angry at you, and Jordan faces very difficult economic problems because of the gulf crisis. Do you have any regrets about your refusal to join the coalition?

A. None whatsoever. Not in the sense that Jordan's objective was to avoid war and to reverse the occupation of Kuwait peacefully. We were never for the Iraqi invasion, never a party to it and never aware it was going to happen. But a majority of the world, including the U.S., adopted an attitude that you are either with us or against us. Let me be very, very clear: we were against Iraq's action, and we were against Iraq's intransigence in not taking any of the opportunities to resolve this question peacefully. We never conspired against anybody. When people realize this, maybe they are going to feel what any decent people would: that they have wronged a country and wronged the people and wronged the leader of those people, a friend of theirs for many years.

Q. You were publicly critical of the U.S. during the crisis, but you sent a very tough letter to Saddam Hussein in September that has never been disclosed. Would you share it?

A. In a very short time, a white paper will be published.

Q. Doesn't this letter suggest that you were a good deal tougher on Saddam than is widely known?

A. I was frank and honest, right from the word go. If I didn't succeed, it is to my sadness and regret.

Q. Have you had any communication with Saddam recently?

A. We haven't talked even on the telephone since the first few days of his occupation of Kuwait. From time to time, an Iraqi official passes by. I am very frank in expressing my views.

Q. What course would you now recommend regarding Iraq?

A. It is very difficult to see what advice I might give that would make any difference. It seems to me that lines are set. But I would like to do everything I can to ensure Iraq's integrity and to see that Iraq's future in terms of the rights of its people is given a chance. I think they should resolve their own problems internally within the context of a dialogue. But I don't believe the situation in Iraq is going along these lines; in fact, it is the opposite.

Q. Do you think the sanctions should be lifted?

A. Whatever I say won't make much difference. But I really think that when we have reports that 100,000, maybe 150,000 children under the age of five will die within two months because of malnutrition, sickness and disease, it is a shame to all of us not to do something about it. There are ways and means by which to ensure that help gets to the people.

Q. Can the situation in Iraq possibly improve as long as Saddam remains the leader?

A. Let me put it another way. Throughout this crisis, I have suggested time and again that if I ever felt I was a hindrance or a burden to my country, I wouldn't stay another minute. This is what I believe should happen. It is no great achievement to last, because nobody lasts forever.

Q. Do you see any hope of improvement in your relations with the gulf states?

A. Our relations have deteriorated with a number of gulf states, with the exception of Oman. We had excellent relations with Oman throughout. As far as the rest are concerned, I think they were charged up with a lot of wrong information. Our view is that sooner or later the truth will come out, and things will change. And they will. There is no doubt about that. Because whatever premise they base their relations with us on, we are still one Arab family. During this terrible period -- it is hard to believe it's only a year; it seems like 10 or 20 years -- it has been difficult to find out exactly who did what or hurt whom. What happened? I can't understand it.

Q. You have had some communication with President Mubarak lately. Does this signal an improvement in your relations with Egypt?

A. We are in normal contact from time to time. I believe personally that it is vital for our people to be in touch with each other. Somehow the opportunity will arise at some point for leaders of this region to sit face to face. I am not afraid of that. In fact, I welcome it. And I have sought it so that the air can be cleared.

Q. Jordan is moving toward greater democratization. Was the timing dictated at all by the gulf war, or is this something you had planned to do all along?

A. I think we beat the Soviet Union on starting this process. We are proud of the changes. We have a new national political charter here. It took nine months. We had people from the extreme right and the extreme left getting to know each other, discussing and debating. What they produced has put us on the threshold of having political parties. Experiences ((like the war)) illustrate the need to create democratic institutions in this region. I hope our example might show the way -- a country where people share power, express their opinions, discuss and debate, where there is respect for human rights, where there is democracy. Because that is the only guarantee that things don't go haywire and that demigods are not created of leaders.

Q. President Bush hoped that once Saddam was defeated, the Arab-U.S. alliance would somehow unlock the peace process. Is it your judgment that things are going nowhere?

A. I don't think that things are nowhere. I think there is a bit more knowledge of what the difficulties are. I hope there is a determination to continue to try to resolve them. I believe the chances won't be with us very long before there will be an acceleration toward extremism as a result of the gulf war and the suffering of people.

We have been as positive as we could be. Essentially we are agreed that there should be two tracks -- one a Palestinian-Israeli track, the other an Arab-Israeli track -- and that they should meet at the end. We certainly favor a Palestinian delegation chosen by the Palestinian people, because you can't have people representing them except those of their own choice. However, if there is a problem there and it can be overcome only by providing an umbrella of a joint Jordanian-Palestinian delegation, then we will do that based on talks with the Palestine Liberation Organization and with the Palestinians. A real Palestinian nationalist in my book is somebody who is hanging on to his land, and has been enduring hardship for years and years, much more so than somebody who is sitting outside the occupied territories pontificating about nationalist matters from a position of comfort.

Q. But can negotiations really work this time?

A. I don't know whether a shock every now and then is what is needed. We also need Europe to act. We need people who have access to every party to this conflict. We are ready, willing and hopeful. We believe in a comprehensive settlement. It can't be just between Jordan and Israel, and Jordan cannot be Palestine.

Q. Can the process go forward without Syria?

A. It could, if out of the blue Syria were insistent on not being a party to the solution. This question has been put to us time and again: Are you tied to Syria's position? We are not tied to anybody's position.

Q. Some people feel that this is the last chance for peace. Do you agree?

A. I believe it is our last chance. We don't have much time. According to some estimates, the Israelis now occupy 65% of the West Bank and Gaza.

Q. What is the alternative? Is another war inevitable?

A. If there is no peace, things cannot remain the way they are. You can't tackle some of the really serious problems we face except in a context of peace -- things that affect people, such as water, the economy, progress, people settling down. You can't tackle extremism. This madness will bring about eventual disaster.

Q. After 38 years on the throne, you have been running your country longer than anyone else in the world.

A. In earlier years there was an expectation of ending it within weeks or days or whatever. Somehow time passes. But the important thing is the regret that after all these years we haven't been able to achieve peace that generations after us can accept.

Q. You sound exasperated and discouraged.

A. Not discouraged. The world has changed in many respects, and I hope that will soon have a positive impact on this region. After all, it is important to the world.