A Heated Exchange over Mudslinging

By MICHAEL KRAMER and JOHN F. STACKS CHICAGO Paul Tsongas and Bill Clinton

As the debate drew to a close, the issue of negative campaigning was raised -- and so was the temperature

Q. Let me make one observation. I have covered a lot of presidential campaigns. You guys don't seem all that far apart. The campaign has turned a little bitter, a little personal. Is this the Democratic ticket, or is that impossible now?

CLINTON: They asked me today if I would consider him for Vice President, and I said, "You bet I would."

TSONGAS: I answered the same question. I said anyone who has run is a candidate for Vice President. You know, Bill, now that we are face to face, why don't we agree that all the TV we do from here on in, all the advertising is about what we stand for and not try to define the other person. That's a fair offer, isn't it?

CLINTON: Look, when you ran that ad talking about how you were the truth teller, the only truth teller, that everybody else is running based on polls, and I was trying to increase the deficit with the middle-class tax cut, you knew it wasn't so. ((Nebraska Senator Bob)) Kerrey and I paid for the middle- class tax cut ((by increasing the tax bite on the wealthiest Americans)). So I don't know what your screaming means.

TSONGAS: You don't want to take this? I make the offer face to face.

CLINTON: Well, what do you mean? Are you willing to concede that was a false ad?

TSONGAS: I will take off any ad you don't like. What could be more fair than that?

CLINTON: Well, I don't want to get into that -- I think the American people somewhere . . .

TSONGAS: You know that this negative advertising is working.

CLINTON: No. I know what works.

TSONGAS: The offer is out there. Take it.

CLINTON: What worked was when I gave the American people the different choice. Your choice was, "Here I am, a truth teller against a middle-class tax cut that is going to increase the deficit." My choice was, "I don't want more across-the-board, something-for-nothing cuts in the capital gains." I am for targeted benefits that people will already get, so I get to characterize it.

TSONGAS: You want to continue what we are doing?

CLINTON: I want to continue sharpening the differences for the American people.

TSONGAS: That's pretty clear.

CLINTON: I don't want to do anything that is unfair. If you have abandoned your position on COLAs ((cost of living allowances)), then I will say that, you know, we will change that. You have a right to change. I have changed my positions over the years. I wanted to change.

TSONGAS: You knew what my position was. It didn't stop you from doing the . . .

CLINTON: No, I didn't. I thought your position was in the book. You are still printing up that book and sending it to everybody, so I didn't know that you changed your position from the book.

TSONGAS: You . . .

CLINTON: And, you know, on the gas-tax thing, I just don't think that's the only way. I have raised the gas tax. I am not against the gas tax, but a nickel a year for a decade is too much for people who don't live in urban areas and ride mass transit.

TSONGAS: Let me ask you for a lesser concession. When you put out the literature on my vote on aid to Syria, why don't you also mention that six of the seven Jewish members of the Senate voted the same way I did, as well as Ted Kennedy and Scoop Jackson who were adamant supporters of Israel? That would be fair.

CLINTON: I will give you that. That was put out by ((my)) local people, and when I saw it, I didn't like it when I heard your explanation.

TSONGAS: Did you say anything about it?

CLINTON: Yes, I said, "Let's don't put that out anymore." Let me remind you of how this got started. The first big ad there was -- the thing that got you the kudos from all the thoughtful people -- was here are Bob Kerrey and Bill Clinton out there pandering on how the middle-class tax cut is going to increase the deficit when it was absolutely revenue-neutral, and it was never the centerpiece of his or my economic plans. It was a part of them. You had a right to position us and characterize us in any way you wanted to, but when I took your book and your specific statements, you didn't like that; but at $ least I didn't say that you were trying to increase the deficit, which was not true.

Q. Sounds like it's too early to talk about the ticket.