"The President is not up to his job"

By JOHN KOHAN and YURI ZARAKHOVICH MOSCOW Ruslan Khasbulatov

Once a sturdy ally of Boris Yeltsin's, Ruslan Khasbulatov has turned into one of his most implacable foes. Last week the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet talked candidly with TIME about the failures of reform, the growing anti- American sentiment in his country and why Yeltsin should quit.

Q. What do you think will be the outcome of the April 25 referendum?

A. I really don't care. Any outcome will only be a loss for Russia. The referendum is needed by the Yeltsin team to deflect the people's attention from real failures in the economy. This is in the tradition of our Communist Party bureaucracy. Whenever things went wrong, they tried to distract attention, as in ancient Rome, by providing bread and circuses.

Q. What is your message for the Russian people during this campaign?

A. I would like Russians to think over one question: During the past three years of this economic policy, has your life become better or worse? I want the people to know there were other options and ways of carrying out reform in a more successful fashion. It is no secret to anyone today that the President is not up to his job and keeps violating the constitution and the laws. He has reverted to the kind of activity that comes natural to him -- being the first secretary of a regional Communist Party committee. But life is not going to end on April 25. It will be only the beginning of a more serious life.

Q. You were once Yeltsin's right-hand man in parliament. What went wrong?

A. As the President himself said -- and I agree with him -- this is not a question of personalities. At issue are different approaches to economic reform. ((The President's team)) has failed, humiliated the entire country. But Yeltsin stubbornly keeps going on. Can a huge state be held hostage to this kind of stubbornness? When you are driving a car and see a concrete wall up ahead, you have to put on the brakes. Maybe if you're alone in the car you could ram it, but if you are taking the whole country along, you have to be more reasonable.

Q. You have said the West pays too much attention to Yeltsin, but is there an alternative?

A. There are 150 million Russians, and you say there is no alternative! Why don't you like Vice President Rutskoi? What about the Prime Minister or any of the deputies or regional governors? For Russian citizens, it doesn't really make any difference if Clinton supports Yeltsin or not. Quite the contrary. It only irritates them. It is only natural, they think, that the former enemies of Russia would approve of Yeltsin, because he is the one who ruined the country. I am really concerned about a growth of anti-American feeling. You have fallen into this artificial trap out of a sheer lack of knowledge of Russia.

Q. So how does Russia solve its crisis?

A. I told our esteemed President, "You have lost your authority, and through your efforts and the efforts of the press supporting you, the people's deputies have also lost their authority. So let's go for early elections -- together." The President and I have reached agreements before. We embrace each other, then we leave with the understanding that we have resolved the issue. The next day he rejects it. This is not the way I am used to working.

Q. Is there a danger that if the power struggle continues, there might be a restoration of communist power?

A. This is a big bluff, a primitive myth created by Yeltsin and his entourage. Ever since Gorbachev's reforms, despite all the suffering, Russians realize there is no way back. You should see this political struggle from a different angle. It is the executive branch that is seeking to use neo-Bolshevik methods. Entire sections of the former Communist Party Central Committee simply drifted into the President's administration, together with their archives, safes and even their telephones. Under the guise of working for a democratic President, they are simply restoring old party ways. They have no use for laws, the constitution or democracy. This is where the real danger lies.

Q. Some speeches at the Congress have caused concern in the West about a revival of the cold war . . .

A. Maybe there were shades of this in what some of the deputies said, but this is also true of Western parliamentarians, who say they still view Russia as the enemy. So what? A speech by one deputy out of a thousand should not be interpreted as official policy. Why do you always apply one standard for yourselves and a different one for Russia?

Q. Do you think it is inevitable that Yeltsin will have to go?

A. Without a doubt. If the President is going to be so stubborn, he will definitely have to go. Do you really think the Russian state cannot exist without this President? There will be another President. America did not turn upside down because Bush left office. So why should anything happen if Yeltsin or Khasbulatov should go?

Q. It is one thing if a President leaves office when his term expires. Impeachment is different . . .

A. But if a presidency has gone bankrupt, it can't be helped. Richard Nixon did not leave office of his own free will.

Q. Considering all these troubling events, do you see any grounds for optimism?

A. The Russians themselves generate optimism. You could not imagine another people who would be so patient as ours. I don't think Americans would have endured such experiments and trials. They would certainly not put up with this mocking ((referendum)) question: I have robbed you and reduced you to poverty, but now tell me that you love me.

Q. And what if the people say they do love Yeltsin?

A. It is certainly possible. That is the way Russians are.