"I've Gained Strength"

By John F. Dickerson, NANCY GIBBS

TIME What's the most important thing you've learned from the past four years?

BUSH I've learned I really enjoy the job. It's a fantastic moment in my life, obviously. There's a lot of ups and downs. There's a lot of high drama and not much calm so far. But I've enjoyed doing it, to the point where I'd like to do it again. I've learned that Washington is a much more bitter, ugly place, dominated by special interests, than I ever envisioned. I was surprised. When I was the Governor of Texas, I had a good working relationship with the leaders from both parties. We would say, "Let's get things done for Texas" and get things done.

TIME You talk a lot about your leadership style, setting the goal and following through. Is there something about that style that is naturally dividing people?

BUSH I guess we'll find out, won't we, in November? But I don't think it's an issue of style. I think it's an issue of the culture in Washington. It's a kind of place where if you are seen trying to reach an agreement with a Democrat, or vice versa, you've betrayed your party or betrayed the cause. Hopefully, it'll change in the second term.

TIME Is there anything you can do in a second term to try to break that stranglehold of special interests?

BUSH I think that I will be less threatening a person from a political perspective in the second term. I mean, I won't be running again.

TIME Is there anything else you have learned as President?

BUSH I learned it's real hard to put people into combat. The consequences of war are death. That's hard. I realize that the decisions I have made have put people in harm's way. It's just a hard part of the job, even when you know you're right. It hits you all the time.

TIME Do you think it was a failure of imagination that everybody thought Saddam Hussein had stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction [WMD]?

BUSH No, I don't think so. I don't know if you've traveled with me recently, but I have made it very clear that we thought we would find stockpiles. I remind the people that he had the capability of making those weapons. And therefore that was not a failure of imagination to think that. As a matter of fact, I can't imagine not having taken Saddam Hussein seriously as a threat, given his history and his capabilities and his intent.

TIME Would you do the same thing again?

BUSH Yes.

TIME When it turned out that there were no WMD stockpiles, did you think, We've got to do this differently going forward?

BUSH As you go forward, how do you deal with the threats that face the country? Yes, it's to make sure that [you have] the ability to analyze information in a way that can look at all sides, to make sure that all opinions end up in the end product [presented] to the decision makers. That's really what we're talking about when it comes to intelligence reform.

TIME Do you find yourself now asking a second set of questions on the intelligence that you might not have asked before?

BUSH Look, I asked a lot of questions before. Anytime you put a large group of people into a combat zone, you ask a lot of questions. Yes, obviously, all of us that now look at intelligence say, Let's make sure that the analyst who came up with that information has gotten additional input. We've just got to make sure that as we connect the dots, everybody's voices are heard.

TIME Can you talk about the discussions you had about what it was going to take to enter an Arab country and introduce democracy with an army?

BUSH With an army? Well, yes, that's an interesting way to ask the question. Yes, we had a lot of discussion about whether it was possible. And, obviously, I came down on the side that not only is it possible, it's necessary. There are some people who are very skeptical. I mean, there's a lot of people in the Republican Party who don't believe it's possible. I do.

I know that in the long run, the only way to secure our country is to spread freedom. I just believe that, as sure as I'm sitting here. We've laid out a doctrine that says we're going to secure the peace, protect the peace and extend the peace. To secure the peace in the war on terrorism, we're very aggressively searching for al-Qaeda and affiliates of al-Qaeda and holding people accountable if they harbor al-Qaeda. Preserving the peace is alliance building, working with others. The Proliferation Security Initiative is a classic example of something new that's occurred as you preserve the peace. From one nation, the United States, to now 60 nations are all involved with the interdiction of technologies and information of weapons of mass destruction. And I'm extending the peace with the spread of democracy.

And that's really the interesting debate. I mean, you've hit upon the crux of whether or not the foreign policy of this Administration will work. Now, look, we went into Iraq because I felt, as a lot of other people did, Saddam was a threat and therefore had to be dealt with for short-term security. But the long-term strategy is for Iraq to be a democracy. It takes a while to get there, but I will tell you, the world has got to be somewhat heartened by the fact that now 10 million Afghan citizens have shown up to register to vote. It's a fantastic thought. They had me watch this movie, Osama, which I urge you to watch. Get it on a DVD. It's about a young girl in Afghanistan. It's powerful. It affected me. Do you remember when they pulled the women off the bus and killed them because they had voter ID cards or something? The Taliban just shot them. And there was this attitude that, well, there goes the elections. It can't possibly happen. And since that day, there have been over 7 million more people registered to vote in Afghanistan, which was, regrettably, one of the most backward outposts in the world.

TIME How do you assess Iraq's progress toward democracy?

BUSH It's tough right now, but they're headed to elections. The people want to vote. If the United States is willing to lead and never waver in our belief that liberty can change the habits of people, never blink, be kind and compassionate, generous with our money--which we are--but resolute in our belief in liberty, Iraq will end up being a free country. It doesn't have to look like America, by the way. That's one of the great myths--that all of a sudden, these countries must look like America. Quite the contrary. They will develop their own style of freedom to meet their own customs. And by the way, when I've talked to people about the march to freedom, I remind them of the Articles of Confederation. It was not exactly a smooth road to the government we know today. To me, there is a natural progression if people even get a whiff of liberty. And that's what you're seeing. I think a free Iraq is going to influence Iran. There are people inside that country who are anxious for a free society to emerge. As you know, I'm the first President ever to have articulated a position that there ought to be a Palestinian state. I believe that a Palestinian state will emerge. I know a free Iraq will serve as an example to the Palestinian people that it's possible to live in a society where, actually, the government is responsive, as opposed to a society where one person has pretty much decided the fate of the people.

TIME You mean Yasser Arafat.

BUSH A failed leader. I was the first world leader ever to have suggested that, I guess, publicly, much to the consternation of many of our allies. Nevertheless, they're now beginning to realize that maybe I was right, that if the person doesn't have it in his soul to believe in liberty, a free society will never emerge. And Mr. Arafat has had his chance. I view these moments as transforming events. We'll look back and we'll say, you know, Thank God the United States held true to its belief.

You know, I sit down with the families of the fallen and tell them the reason why the sacrifice will be worth it in the long run. It may seem such a distant memory for many, but it wasn't all that long ago that we were fighting Japan. My dad fought against Japan. And now [Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro] Koizumi is one of the best allies in peace. This wouldn't have happened had my predecessors not believed that liberty could transform an enemy into an ally. The same in Germany, in many ways.

TIME Is the war on terrorism something our generation and the next generation are just going to have to get used to?

BUSH Yes, I think it is a long-lasting ideological struggle. Frankly, the war on terror is somewhat misnamed, though. It ought to be called the struggle of a totalitarian point of view that uses terror as a tool to intimidate the free.

TIME In a recent article, Norman Podhoretz calls it World War IV and says it's going to last a long time.

BUSH I'm not the historian. I'm the guy making history. I deal with problems as I see them, and I think long range as well. I do think it's a long-term issue. It's one in which liberty will prevail if we have the will and the determination.

TIME Are you thinking it's a 30-year, 40-year problem?

BUSH I'm a two-month man right now. [Laughter.] I don't know. We're dealing in a part of the world where our policy was, O.K., we'll kind of tolerate the lack of liberty for other reasons and just hope it gets better. And sure enough, it didn't. And the al-Qaeda--they're very ideologically driven people. Their plan is to take over governments with their ideology. Right before 9/11, if you remember, Pakistan was flirting with the Taliban and had very close relations. One of the successes of this Administration has been to convince President [Pervez] Musharraf to be an ally in the war against alQaeda and the Taliban. Prior to September 11, Saudi Arabia didn't take al-Qaeda very seriously. Now that alQaeda has declared war on them, we now have a strong ally in the war on terror. My only point to you is that if Pakistan and the Saudis were ever to have fallen into the hands of those who shared the al-Qaeda--type vision, the dynamics of peace would change dramatically because the assets at their disposal would be significant. A weak government that has not listened to the people, that has created resentment and anger, becomes the host for the parasite. And the parasite eventually overcomes the host. That's what you saw in Afghanistan.

TIME You've said that you don't think that they're religious people.

BUSH I don't.

TIME They're religiously motivated.

BUSH I don't think people who would believe in an Almighty God would slit somebody's throat, just like that. I believe that they use religion as a justification for their ideology. But I don't view killers as truly religious people.

TIME You said once about Franklin Roosevelt that you look at how he aged through World War II and feel it sapped his soul. Do you feel some of that in this long struggle?

BUSH You know, I've gained strength through dealing with the people that I've tried to comfort. It's an amazing experience to walk into a room with moms and dads or a wife or somebody who ends up comforting the comforter. And I've gained strength by witnessing firsthand the great character of the country. Now, look, admittedly, I'm in a bubble, but nevertheless, I'm able to gain an interesting look at the soul of America. I've gained strength as America has gained strength. Think about the remarkable recovery this country made after the September 11 attack.

TIME Faith is important to you. Have you ever prayed for Saddam?

BUSH No.

TIME There is that challenge to pray for your enemies.

BUSH Absolutely. But you asked me a personal question, Do I pray for him? No, I haven't. I pray for a lot of things. I pray for the safety of our troops, I pray for those whose hearts are broken because of the decisions I made, I pray for strength, I pray for wisdom. Maybe I will [pray for Saddam], now that you've asked the question.

TIME What do you hear from Saddam? Is he saying anything?

BUSH No. I think a lot of them over there aren't talking because there's no incentive to talk.

TIME At the Democratic Convention, Bill Clinton said, "Strength and wisdom are not opposing values."

BUSH I didn't hear his speech.

TIME He said, "Strength and wisdom are not opposing values."

BUSH Strength and wisdom are not opposing. I agree.

TIME He meant it as an attack on you.

BUSH I think that a President must listen and take into account the advice of a lot of people. And I do. I've got a smart Administration. One of your jobs, of course, is to find out all the little tensions and bring them to the fore. But it's all part of decision making. See, that's what this job is. It's essential that the world and the country see a resolute nature. Leaders set a vision, they listen, they make decisions, and they lead. People will tell you I'm open-minded. But I can decide, see. I can make up my mind. If you say, Write your job description, I'd say, Decision maker. I make a lot of decisions. Some of them you'll never see. In the course of history, I was called upon to make some big decisions. And I'm very comfortable with that role.

TIME Is there anything in John Kerry's Vietnam career that you think is relevant to this race?

BUSH His service was honorable, as far as I'm concerned. This debate ought to be about who can lead the war on terror. And that's where I'll conduct it. Look, I know there's a lot of consternation about 527s [groups outside the political parties that can spend unlimited amounts of money to influence elections]. I share the same consternation. When I signed that [campaign-finance-reform] bill, I thought we got rid of this kind of stuff--unregulated soft money, billionaires pouring money into a campaign. I can understand why Senator Kerry is upset with us. I wasn't so pleased with the ads that were run about me. And my call is get rid of them all, now.

TIME Your spokesman said Kerry lost his cool in reacting to these charges. If his service was honorable, shouldn't he have lost his cool?

BUSH He can handle his business the way he feels like it. I'm just telling you, these ads shouldn't be around.

TIME How is this election different from the one in 2000?

BUSH The good thing about this race, as opposed to the last race, is the voters now know me.

TIME They know what they're getting?

BUSH Yes. Steady, strong leadership. I'm going to make hard decisions and be willing to lead and make the tough calls. Some don't like that. But my job is to solve problems, not pass them on. I'm not going to read the history about it while I'm alive because I don't trust short-term history. Most historians wouldn't have voted for me, so I don't think they can write an objective history. But I think long-term history will say that this Administration accomplished a lot and recognized the changing times and helped adjust policy to those changing times.

TIME One of us asked you at a press conference last April what you thought your biggest mistake was. You didn't have an answer then. Do you now?

BUSH When you asked that question, I was convinced you were trying to force me to say it was a mistake to go into Iraq, which I wasn't going to do. As sure as I'm sitting here, the right decision was to remove Saddam Hussein from power. The tactics going into Iraq were based upon a certain set of assumptions, like refugee flows, hunger, oil destruction. Had we had to do it over again, we would look at the consequences of catastrophic success--being so successful so fast that an enemy that should have surrendered or been done in escaped and lived to fight another day. I couldn't have sat down and said to you, By the way, we're going to be so victorious so quickly that we'll end up having to fight another third of the Baathists over the next year in order to bring liberty to the country. There's an idea that you can chew on.